It’s hard to make a bigtime woohoo evaluation without knowing how you decided what his range is, what your table image is, etc. From a cash-equity vs. chip-equity standpoint, eh. I play to win, and getting a stack that allows you to bully on the bubble (or, alternately, that allows you to fold a pretty but junky hand because there’s no pressure on you) adds a substantial amount of ‘implied chip equity’ – you’re talking about having an M of 20+ at a time when par is going to be 10ish (and dropping like a rock). Only two hands are actually ahead of you and you can still beat those by the river.
And your almost certain cash is by no means certain. Pick up KK four hands later, A3o can still outrun you (and if you’re reraising a steal, probably has the odds to call anyway). On the actual-fuhreal bubble, I might be watching the tourney lobby to see if anyone’s stack just dropped to zero, but most of the time the profit generated by a bottom-tier cash isn’t going to talk me into folding anyway.
There are all kinds of rationalizing comments that go with such hands:
From the big one: "I’m playing for the bracelet; not the money."
To your’s or the equivalent from the guy against you.
I’ve played it both ways. I’ve won and lost both ways. Everybody reading this can say the same — the event is commonplace. With the limited bankroll, cashing does become more important. But, just cashing usually returns the buyin and chump change. So, no real criticism going either way.
Anything we do post event is rationalizing. "I got in with the best hand." or your "range; pot odds; etc." and the "I had a suckout coming." when we do get the card fairy to cooperate. Poker has a list of cop-outs that we all use. "That’s Poker!"
Don’t be a pansy – play to win. I make the same move seven days a week and twice on Sundays. There’s also nothing to say that you wouldn’t have gotten a string of bad beats to prevent you from cashing anyway if you don’t move all your chips in the middle in that spot. So you’re not gonna get any arguments from me, since that’s how I’d have played it myself. Assuming I didn’t already do 97 other stupid things and bust out in the first hour.
Fold that thing fast! There are 84 people left. This tournament in far from over. You are not winning the tournament witht his hand. Get in the money and make your move then. Some money is better than none.
Is that the argument you are looking for? Can’t say I either agree or disagree with the comment. A lot depends on the read you have on the player. You put him on a range and went with your read. It turned out to be the correct decision with unfortunate results.
Depending on how I was running, I may fold just to get a cash under my belt with the hope that I can build on it. I tend to be conservative though.
Although I would tend to call the insta-push with the ladies, I’m more or less with Brewtown Steve in this situation. I’d rather cash and take my chances after the security of making the money.
certainly, I’m no expert, but I’ve played enough to toss my 2 cents in here…my theory is that, when 2 players with equal stacks (fair stack) raise and reraise one another preflop, a reraise by the MP player for all his chips equates to a pretty marginal hand. Only a few cases have I encountered an all-in reraise from MP with the guy holding Ks or As (unless the guy was short-stacked or big-stacked…I’d actually say, most short-stacks smoothe call w/Ks or As…and big stacks hope for the call with the notion that other players think he’s trying to bully the table). I’d say 90% of the time, guys holding these kind of hands (Ks or As) are reraising 2x or 3x your bet, or something equivalent…enough to weed out the other players, but not enough for you to fold. Generally, I’m putting these guys, who push all their chips in, on hands like 5s-10s…hands that most players don’t really want to be playing post-flop against a EP raiser.
I wouldn’t have folded either.
It’s hard to make a bigtime woohoo evaluation without knowing how you decided what his range is, what your table image is, etc. From a cash-equity vs. chip-equity standpoint, eh. I play to win, and getting a stack that allows you to bully on the bubble (or, alternately, that allows you to fold a pretty but junky hand because there’s no pressure on you) adds a substantial amount of ‘implied chip equity’ – you’re talking about having an M of 20+ at a time when par is going to be 10ish (and dropping like a rock). Only two hands are actually ahead of you and you can still beat those by the river.
And your almost certain cash is by no means certain. Pick up KK four hands later, A3o can still outrun you (and if you’re reraising a steal, probably has the odds to call anyway). On the actual-fuhreal bubble, I might be watching the tourney lobby to see if anyone’s stack just dropped to zero, but most of the time the profit generated by a bottom-tier cash isn’t going to talk me into folding anyway.
you want to cash or you want to win?
There are all kinds of rationalizing comments that go with such hands:
From the big one: "I’m playing for the bracelet; not the money."
To your’s or the equivalent from the guy against you.
I’ve played it both ways. I’ve won and lost both ways. Everybody reading this can say the same — the event is commonplace. With the limited bankroll, cashing does become more important. But, just cashing usually returns the buyin and chump change. So, no real criticism going either way.
Anything we do post event is rationalizing. "I got in with the best hand." or your "range; pot odds; etc." and the "I had a suckout coming." when we do get the card fairy to cooperate. Poker has a list of cop-outs that we all use. "That’s Poker!"
Play to win v. Play to cash.
Don’t be a pansy – play to win. I make the same move seven days a week and twice on Sundays. There’s also nothing to say that you wouldn’t have gotten a string of bad beats to prevent you from cashing anyway if you don’t move all your chips in the middle in that spot. So you’re not gonna get any arguments from me, since that’s how I’d have played it myself. Assuming I didn’t already do 97 other stupid things and bust out in the first hour.
Instacall.
Unless it was some 4-6% hands played type player that you could put on KK or AA, instacall the push.
I call too. Sorry about the shitty beat. I think you deserve another bottle of whiskey.
Fold that thing fast! There are 84 people left. This tournament in far from over. You are not winning the tournament witht his hand. Get in the money and make your move then. Some money is better than none.
Is that the argument you are looking for? Can’t say I either agree or disagree with the comment. A lot depends on the read you have on the player. You put him on a range and went with your read. It turned out to be the correct decision with unfortunate results.
Depending on how I was running, I may fold just to get a cash under my belt with the hope that I can build on it. I tend to be conservative though.
Although I would tend to call the insta-push with the ladies, I’m more or less with Brewtown Steve in this situation. I’d rather cash and take my chances after the security of making the money.
How’s that for a political viewpoint on the hand?
This is a good call. I used to agonize about these, but these days if anything my range is opening up (99/TT) to call there. JJ or better def.
Unless it’s me, er, a real tight-box, oh, never mind, I call it in a flash and probably break something.
G
You need to post more often.
DANCE MONKEY!!!
And also I think you are the second best looking poker blogger, but it isn’t even close betwixt you and number 1.
Now back to dancing monkey!!!
certainly, I’m no expert, but I’ve played enough to toss my 2 cents in here…my theory is that, when 2 players with equal stacks (fair stack) raise and reraise one another preflop, a reraise by the MP player for all his chips equates to a pretty marginal hand. Only a few cases have I encountered an all-in reraise from MP with the guy holding Ks or As (unless the guy was short-stacked or big-stacked…I’d actually say, most short-stacks smoothe call w/Ks or As…and big stacks hope for the call with the notion that other players think he’s trying to bully the table). I’d say 90% of the time, guys holding these kind of hands (Ks or As) are reraising 2x or 3x your bet, or something equivalent…enough to weed out the other players, but not enough for you to fold. Generally, I’m putting these guys, who push all their chips in, on hands like 5s-10s…hands that most players don’t really want to be playing post-flop against a EP raiser.
I wouldn’t have folded either.